Get With the Program: Adjustable 2nd Row Seating
Tom Martin
I drove the Ford Flex yesterday for the first time. There is a lot to like about the car. One likable aspect is that 2nd row legroom is phenomenal (we're talking S550/Maybach style room). Given that, I wonder why Ford forgot to make the 2nd row seats adjustable fore/aft (note: except as an option), which would allow more 3rd row legroom or cargo room when needed? Similarly, why is 2nd row seat height and tilt such a rare feature (MIA for Honda, Hyundai, Kia, BMW and Ford in recent memory of cars with spacious 2nd row seating)? It isn't just kids who end up back there, a fact that is perhaps acknowledged by the (thank you very much) available 2nd row seat heaters on some cars including the Flex. More thought seems to go into the exterior illumination packages than 2nd row seats, but in my book seating is vastly more important.
- Discuss (18 comments)
- Digg It
- Del.icio.us
- StumbleUpon
Popular Sections
- European Car Talk (German, British, Italian, Swedish)
- Tuning and Project Cars
- Automotive Technology and the Driver
- Ask It -- Questions/Answers/Observations About Test Vehicles
- Design & Autoshows
Mena
How was the power? Ride? Steering feel?
Tom Martin
I thought the power was adequate with 3 people on board, with decent torque and a pleasantly direct (not sloppy) transmission. But I drove the car exclusively on flat terrain. Chris may want to comment, as I think he would like more power.
I thought the ride was exceptional. Nice balance of firmness with smoothness. Low roll. The car has a long wheelbase and has a good feel going down the road. Controlled with high directional stability. Luxurious not by being soft but by being unperturbed.
Steering feel was nothing like a Porsche, but I thought the ratio was nicely chosen and I liked the feel of the wheel (interior design is pretty good overall).
The cars I drove were AWD Limited package cars.
Mena
Thanks. Sounds like a good car.
Chris Paukert
This is a fine question, and something I'm constantly amazed by as well. I've never asked an engineer, but I have to wonder if their general absence is not due to cost, but rather something to do with crash test optimization. It's always a pleasant surprise when manufacturers include this sort of thing (the Volkswagen Tiguan was the last such vehicle we had in the fleet), but I imagine that with two-row vehicles, it can be a bit tougher and more expensive to to develop the mechanisms that must also tumble or fold into the floor.
Chris Paukert
Editor-In-Chief
Winding Road Magazine // NextAutos
Robert Mc Gillen
I am a little puzzled why you are unaware of one brand whose model lineup has several models that offer fore and aft adjustment, fold, fold and tumble and removesble 2 and 3 row seating. Renault has been offering these features in various combinations since the 1960's.
chartguy
Chris is right, at the end. The seat has to fold away to allow more storage in this type of vehicle. The hinge for folding is anchored to the floor, securely. Front-to-back adjustment becomes up-and-down movement when the seat folds. It would have to be MUCH heavier to work and be safe in an accident.
BobLA90069
What I think are the 2 most important points were missed in the post_____
--Most obvious reason for adjustable rear seat in a family car: you can reach a baby or small child strapped into a seat (without parking and getting out of the car, and he is close enough to talk to.
--Most obvious reason the 2nd seat is not adjustable; COST, COST, COST!! It might cost hundreds to make the seat both fold and move, because the seatbelts would have to be integral to the seat.
Jeb Hoge
The seatbelts don't have to be integral. It all depends on where the C-pillar is relative to the seat and how much travel is engineered into the belt. In the Freestyle, the belts are in the C-pillar while the buckle is built into the seats. Adults have never complained about the belt positioning and when our son uses his booster seat, there is no problem with the belt having enough travel to wrap around both him and the seat, even with the seat slid forward.
BillS
BMW X5 and MB R500 have this feature. I've seen the seat tracks from front seats and they aren't that huge, so I find it hard to believe that weight (on a 4400 lb vehicle) is the issue. Front to back isn't up and down when the seat folds (the bottom cushion is still in the xy plane). I can imagine that offering fore/aft adjustment might confuse some users who can't figure out how to adjust the seats to fold flat. But I think the real problem is that Ford offers power seat folding. Could it be that while losing billions they don't have the software engineers to make the seat move back to the base position so that folding the seat works every time?
darius
Too heavy, too big, too expensive; otherwise, a great vehicle that, I predict, will die on the vine.
Too bad Ford doesn't have a proven & reliable diesel laying around...
Too bad they didn't do the suicide doors, or even at least ONE sliding door.
Who, exactly, is going to buy this and why? For a lil bit more, I can get a nice Mercedes diesel minivan (r-320), for a lil bit less, I can get a maxed out Honda Odyssey.
Just not clear on the concept--and that lack of clarity will likely preclude many buyers from ever appreciating the fine driving, ride, etc. of the what-should-have-been-the-Fairlane, as they will simply skip the test drive.
My view: this was an alternative to SUVs, a segment that has imploded (so, the alternative to nothing is...nothing); it will NOT replace a minivan.
Tom Martin
Well, the Flex is pretty much as useful inside as a minivan, so I can easily imagine someone who refuses a minivan based on styling would choose this. I also thought it drove differently and and in many ways better than a minivan. I'm not sure conquest sales from minivans will make this a roaring success, but most of us are a little slipshod with how we discuss success. Minivans sell perhaps 600k units per year. If the Flex got 10% (say half from vans and half from SUVs) of that it would sell 60k units. We would call it a "failure" (and Ford would probably agree). Then we'd turn right around and declare Mini's 40k units a "roaring success".
I thought the Flex was easier to use than an SUV (lower height helps). And, if SUVs sold in part on style, the Flex could be a non-SUV SUV for those who need the space.
I do think darius hits a key point though. All of the above might actually work (Flex = more PC stylish minivan/SUV alternative) if the Flex trumped both on gas mileage. But Ford chose not to launch this with a special engine (EcoBoost, Hybrid or Diesel). Too bad. Now can they understand and quickly do a series of version roll-outs to address this?
As much as I love diesels and wish that Ford had been able to pull one off in the Flex, I have to comment that the one car with a diesel that competes with the Flex, the MB R-320 CDI, is about $15-20k more. For most people that isn't a 'little bit'. And, as a fan of the R class (for many of the same reasons I think the Flex has merit) I have had the chance to panel test its styling. About 90% of people think the R is somewhere between moderately and butt ugly. That isn't the reaction that the Flex gets (people don't necessarily love the Flex, but they don't hate it either).
Tom Martin
While I'm here I'll update forum users on my mini-quest for vehicles with adjustable (fore and aft) rear seats:
The Toyota Tundra CrewMax has sliding fore-aft adjustment (and recline fwiw).
Add that to:
BMW X5
Mercedes Benz R Class
Honda Odyssey
I'm sure there are others.
Jeb Hoge
That's very curious that the Flex didn't have fore/aft adjustments for the second row, because our 2005 Freestyle Limited does. It does come in handy in flexible seating and cargo setups, like our beach trip last month. Seatback angle is adjustable too in our second row. Are you sure that you just didn't overlook the feature? Although if the seats are now power-fold (or truly drop into the floor), then maybe the fore/aft adjustment had to be dropped.
Car and Driver
I'm not sure tmartin actually drove the Flex, becuase its second-row seats absolutely have fore-aft adjustablility.
Check out a road test from a premier automotive outlet:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/7_passenger_family_haulers/2009_ford_flex_limited_awd_road_test
Mena
Your link goes to Car and Drivers website. I thought you said, "premier automotive outlet". ;)
Tom Martin
Car and Driver is right re: the Flex, if you order the optional power fold feature. The car I checked did not have this feature. The manual folding seats do not slide fore and aft (which contradicts the ideas above that power fold is what prevented sliding).
Anyway, the new list of roomy back seats with sliding second row seats:
X5
R Class
Odyssey
Toyota Tundra Crewmax
Flex with power fold
Taurus X
Now all we need is tilt adjustment as part of this feature set.
Jeb Hoge
Taurus X probably ought to be on that list too...I think the interior layouts between that and the Flex are very, very similar and the sliding second-row seats are probably common between them, too, since (as I said) the Freestyle has them. Tilt adjustment, too...at least a couple of positions.
Tom Martin
Added. Thanks.