Green Performance Car of the Future

Lear

I just read "The Supercar Model is Broken" in this part of the forum. Seems to me that the point made there (raw speed isn't the key to a great car; feel and sound are more important) really applies when we come to green performance cars. So, assuming the automakers get past pure econocars, what will make for a good green performance car?

Discuss (16 comments)
Digg It
Del.icio.us
StumbleUpon

kumail891@aim.com

right now, the 911's all have good fuel economy, if you compare them to the rest of the cars in their class. i wouldn't want a tesla roadster because their is no engine noise. i would definitely have a 911 though.

Mon, 06/23/2008 - 20:57
- Login or register to post comments

dieselhead

The base Carrera gets 18/26 (2008) and probably will get 20/29 with direct injection. Pretty good. The C6 Corvette is also surprisingly good at 16/26, given that it has much more power and torque.

Still, I don't think either of these meets my definition of green. I'd say 30 mpg combined minimum (e.g. 27/35). The Mini Cooper S is pretty close at 26/34 for 29 combined mpg, and is a fun car.

This shows that weight will be key. Personally, i'd like to see a 2500 lb. two seat sports car with a diesel V6.

My question is whether a hybrid sports car can work.

"Acceleration is simple: torque divided by weight"- Gordon Murray

Mon, 06/23/2008 - 21:15
- Login or register to post comments

Mena

It will work it's just that no one will buy it. Despite clean diesel's existence, no one knows about it. The old stigma's still exist. The only clean diesel's I've seen (anecdotal) in the US are trucks. Those owners buy diesel irregardless of whether it's clean or "dirty".

Tue, 06/24/2008 - 09:35
- Login or register to post comments

dieselhead

I've seen plenty of MB 320 Bluetec, and M and R Class diesels. As far as I know those are the only ones avaiable besides the Jeep Liberty. When nothing is being offered yet, I don't think we can conclude that people are against diesel nor can we expect much marketing (MB diesels are generally back ordered so why market them?). Well except for Audi's LeMans program, which is marketing of a (very much appreciated) sort.

"Acceleration is simple: torque divided by weight"- Gordon Murray

Tue, 06/24/2008 - 10:32
- Login or register to post comments

Mena

BMW has diesels coming as well but they and MB are a different market. I'm talking about the Camry/Accord/Corolla/Civic market where the vast majority of buyers exist. Ask them and they'll tell you that diesels are loud and smelly and the cost of fuel on them is ridiculous. That's who you have to convince. Not us gearheads and not the MB diesel market (that's been around for years).

Tue, 06/24/2008 - 13:11
- Login or register to post comments

dieselhead

I don't have to convince them to buy a 2500lb, 400 lb-ft diesel sports car that sells for $65k.

While we're on the subject, how 'bout an Atom with torque?

"Acceleration is simple: torque divided by weight"

- Gordon Murray

Tue, 06/24/2008 - 13:21
- Login or register to post comments

Mena

I'll take an Atom with anything although I like the sound of the supercharged versions. And watching it outbrake then continue to waste a bike on a road course (Top Gear) just blew me away. And that was just the 245hp version, sheesh!

Tue, 06/24/2008 - 13:50
- Login or register to post comments

c.j.lingo

The sportscar of the future? Well let's take a small 40 to 60hp 1 liter turbo-diesel generator set combined with a large but lite weight lithium battery pack and four independent motors driving the wheels through half shafts. Regenerative braking will assist the turbo-diesel in maintaining the battery charge. This should be good for 0-60 around 5.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in about 14 seconds at about 105 mph and 100 mph cruising speeds with overall mileage around 50 or better mpg. The four motors could be installed in only two stator cases with a pair of center bearings for independence. Electronic controls could provide better stability control than is now available, which combined with the voice coil activated electronic shock absorbers ( I believe that Bose has already patented this. If not you saw it here first and the patent rights are mine. ) could also be given the duty of correcting the roll of the vehicle to make it bank into the curve which should improve handling as well as comfort.

Thu, 06/26/2008 - 23:47
- Login or register to post comments

Ducati Minor

Mosler is marketing the greenness of its MT900S compared to the Ferrari Enzo. The Mosler isn't green, but is a step towards something cleaner. I don't see any green "supercars" on the horizon, but the Tesla Roadster and the Venturi Fetish are pretty neat electric sports cars. (Again, I define a supercar pretty strictly.) I'll be a little more conservative and suggest lighter weight is the direction we're going. The Chevy Corvette has reduced its dimensions and weight considerably since the 1970s.

Fri, 06/27/2008 - 01:24
- Login or register to post comments

Tom Martin

I think Ferrari has made it clear that the future is lower weight.

Fri, 06/27/2008 - 09:04
- Login or register to post comments

Bill Vantuono, GTO Association of America

"Feel and sound are important." There's the heart of the matter! Technology aside, that's what makes a performance car. I'm an "old school" American musclecar guy (I'm 49; my first car was a '67 Pontiac LeMans hardtop coupe with a 326 V-8 that I hot-rodded a bit with a 4BBL carb and dual exhaust, etc.). My daily driver is an '04 GTO that I've modified with a cold-air hood (really needed scoops!). She's got a great sound system, but I frequently drive with the stereo off and the windows down because I love the rumble and roar of the dual exhaust, which is tuned to give a beautiful, out-of-phase burble (though both pipes exit out the left rear, it's a true dual exhaust, and Pontiac engineers crossed the pipes just behind the differential to throw the sound out of phase). She's got a slightly rocky idle, because the stock cam is relatively high-lift. I remember test driving her in 2004. I fired up the LS1 in the dealer lot, and it sent chills through my spine. A high-tech performance car that's based on some sort of electric or hybrid drive? No thanks. Yes, it would be smart and commendable to be "green," but where's the feel? Driving a performance car isn't about being green. It's about having fun. Sure, a Tesla might be just as fast (or faster) than my GTO, but the experience of tearing down a highway in absolute silence would be boring as hell. I'm in the railroad business (editor in chief of the trade publication Railway Age). Why do people of all ages love big steam locomotives (the few that are left running in excursion and tourist service)? It's their feel and sound.

Sat, 06/28/2008 - 05:54
- Login or register to post comments

Lear

I'm with you on the feel and sound thing. Question is: what smaller motor sounds best? I'd don't think we're going to get to 40 or 50 mpg with V-8 (love 'em though I do).

Sat, 06/28/2008 - 07:25
- Login or register to post comments

William J Toensing

I am 75 & have been a car nut all my life. At age 3, parents told me I could tell most of the then newer cars on the road. However, I have proudly marched to a different drummer. I started driving at age 15. My first car was a 1939 Ford "60". I hated that gutless wonder. My second car, which I drove thru high school was a '40 Chevrolet. After that it was a '46 Hudson, '40 Willys, '37 Studebaker, '50 Nash Ambassador, & '51 Hudson Hornet. My first new car was a 1957 VW bug. Then on to a new '58 Volvo & then to a new 1960 Citroen. In the '50s when I bought the new VW, I HATED the American way of building a car. Front engine, rear drive, poor handling, drum brakes, poor gas mileage. I looked down on the Buick Roadmaster as the worst of the worst when it came to MPG, even when gas sold for $0.239 a gallon. I drove new foreign cars from 1957 till 1996 with one exception, a new 1963 Rambler 550 station wagon, 3 speed with overdrive. That Rambler only reinforced my hatred of American cars. In 1965, I traded my "Damn Rambler" in for a new Citroen ID-19 stationwagon. My last new Citroen was a 1972 D-21 station wagon which I still own but has since been relegated to collector car status. In 1996, I relented & bought my first new American car, a 1996 Ford Escort 5 speed now that Ford had finally come to its senses. I likes that car. It got excellant mileage, sometimes over 40 MPG. I turned the Escort over to my stepdaughter who still has it. Has been an excellant car. In 2001, I bought a new Ford Focus ZX3 5 speed. Not because it was a Ford, but because it was chosen European car of the year for 1999. I have become a car collector with several American cars now in my collection. I like my Ford Focus for its European type handling but am dissapointed with its poor fuel economy, 22 town to an occasional 30 MPG on the highway, more often 28 MPG. I luckally just found a 1982 VW Quantum turbo-diesel 5 speed wagon which I intend to fix up & drive until plug in hibrids become available, if they are affordable. If I had to buy a new car today, the only one I would consider is a Toyota Prius but I have my eyes on the forthcomming VW TDI Jetta Sportwagon. Fuel economy coupled with good handling has always been a high priority with me. I developed a liking for small cars after I bought that '40 Willys for $15 in 1953. I could care less about winning drag races & am turned off by American mussel cars of the '60s & '70s that could do zero to 60 in 5 seconds, but couldn't corner or stop - if they had drum brakes. If I had the money, I would go for a Porsche 911 rather than a Corvette or Viper, not that they arn't desirable cars now that they are more European like with 4 wheel independent suspension.

Sun, 07/06/2008 - 04:48
- Login or register to post comments

Mena

Regardless of politics and fads, decent gas mileage has always been a top 5 priority with me when choosing a car. I also always have preferred 4 cyl cars because of their propensity for good fuel mileage and later because some good friends showed me that lots of car companies put a lot engineering goodness in them. Because of the goodies, some of those motors can take a surprising amount of hp and resultant abuse.

These motors aren't always found in competent chassis and after some track time, I have decided that a competent chassis is just as important as hp. Sure, Nissan's SR20 can take 400whp on daily basis but you can only put so much tire under those cars AND the stock suspension designs of those cars suck.

I used to hate muscle cars as a teen and young adult. Now I see their beauty too. People like what they like. I don't have to like it but I don't have to berate what they like either.

BTW, I would also take a 911 over a Corvette or Viper but only because the 911 is what got me into cars. All three are very competent cars.