Let's Get Real About Gas Mileage
Tom Martin
Recent comments on news posts here re: Ford Flex and VW Routan take the view that these cars have mediocre gas mileage. Let's start with a few EPA city/highway mpg facts:
Flex: 17/24
Routan: 17/25
Chevrolet Silverado 5.3: 14/20
These are all large vehicles (7 passenger for the Flex and Routan, V8 pickup load/towing for the Silverado). The Flex and Routan show the advantages of V6 power and lighter unibody weight.
Now, let's look at a few smaller vehicles:
Mitsubishi Galant sedan: 16/25
Mazda Tribute V6 small SUV: 17/24
Kia Rondo small crossover: 18/26
Toyota Camry V6: 19/28
While these much smaller cars do a little better, at this point I'd be hard pressed to say that the Flex and the Routan have "bad" mileage. Per passenger or per cubic foot of interior volume they are in fact much better.
So, I think people are saying that these new cars, to stand out, must offer "much better than average" mileage while still being big. But what is that number and are we being realistic?
Chevy Tahoe Hybrid: 21/22 -- is that enough better?
BMW 335d: 23/33 -- is that enough better?
I assume that these vehicle bracket what is possible for a large car (the Tahoe is on the large side of large and the BMW while not large can be thought of as on the light end of the large car spectrum). Would something in that range do?
For additional comparison:
Mini Cooper S -- 26/34
VW Jetta TDI -- 38/44
Toyota Prius -- 45/48
Or are people really expecting this small eco-car mileage from 6/7 passenger vehicles? If so, I think the wait will be very long and you'd better start saving for a surprisingly high price tag.
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Mena
I think people are expecting eco car gas mileage in large vehicles. People don't really want to give up large vehicles in the long term and are demanding ridiculous fuel mileage for those cars so they can go back to driving them. Like you said, it's not going to happen anytime soon (say 20-30 years). The tech is not there to increase mileage in large vehicles that drastically. The best we'll see in the medium term is mid to high 20's and that's with serial hybrid tech, IMO.
If you want the eco car mileage but not the eco car, a medium sized sedan with a diesel engine is about as large as you can get. If you must have a truck or SUV, pony up the cash for fuel. My wife and I have a truck which she commutes in. We need it and the cost of gas is part of the cost of ownership. A smaller car is in the works in a couple of years (Mini) but that's only coming because my wife wants a fun car.
DavidW
I'm not sure how accurate An Incovenient Truth is but the CAFE standards of all modern nations are significantly higher than the US. If other countries can have higher CAFE standards than the US, then the US can certainly match.
Ducati Minor
The doc, in its government assessments, is incorrect or incomplete in its info.
For example: the fuel economy figures for some countries (such as China) have very poor emissions standards, use diesel heavily, and operate small (often unsafe) vehicles.
Bob Dole
The 24 mpg highway number for the Flex seemed pretty low to me also, especially given that my 1986 Winstar with 3.8L OHV V6 with 4 speed auto and 165K miles will do 24 mpg highway at 70 mph with careful driving.
I would think that a modern OHC V6 with smaller displacement and a 6 speed auto would do better. The truth is probably that the Flex outweighs my old Windstar and is lucky to be making the same mpg.
With a modern drivetrain, weight is the major difference between good mpg and great mpg.
Maybe the real crime here is the Galant et. al. are in the same low(er) mpg class as the Flex.
Bob
David T
And EPA does not tell the entire story. The EPA on my 2008 Mustang GT is 17/23 while I actually get 22 to 23 for my everyday driving and 28 to 29 on trips. I don't baby it but I don't run it up to redline every time I take off either. So, I have a very good American Sports Car that performs great, I get 0-60 in 5.1 seconds, run the quarter over 100 MPH and still get better gas mileage than most so called economy cars. And it runs on regular gas!
David
Anonymous
Why is a 6 cylinder Camry used for comparison instead of 4? The 4 has much better gas milage, and cost much less up front than either a hybrid or a 6 cylinder, When you factor in cost and mileage you should compare using the best competitor in the class not the worst.
AudiAvant
I'm an '07 Audi A6 Avant (wagon) owner. Don't ask me why Audi isn't talking about their mileage but they aren't. My Audi is RATED at 19 city and 27 highway and I feed it top tier premium gas as suggested in the manual. The car is actually delivering about 24 city and 32 highway. Am I a happy camper? OH YEAH
Fensterlips
I'm a 2000 Mercedes E320 owner and I regularly get 22 to 26 mpg average in mixed driving. I have exceeded 34 mpg when on a long freeway run I kept it under 2000 rpm - about 64 mph. Our other car is an '04 Jeep Grand Cherokee with a 4.7L V8 that averages 17 mpg and exceeds 21 mpg on routine long freeway drives.
Here's my question: How can auto manufacturers realistically expect me to be wowed by their choices unless they top the high 20's in average driving. It would make no sense - period.
They can do a lot by using lighter insulation (don't just blow in roofing tar), re-jigger the crank and cam for an Atkinson cycle instead of Otto cycle (power penalty - much better economy), tweak up the rear end/transaxle ratio to a numerically lower ratio, skip shift up the gears under light loads, go to electric power steering, water and air conditioning pumps, provide a price discount that's better for the smaller engine to shift the fleet down faster, and of course pull weight out. There's 1000 tiny ways to save a pound here and a pound there - some cheaper than others. Now diesel would be another discussion worth having but for a "lost generation" due to mis-steps, poor choices and the horrible 5.7L V8 diesel GM put out in the 70's.
Unfortunately the auto companies end up on these incredible 3 year cycles making it impossible to react to a market with anything resembling alacrity
Ruud
Common people, lets not make weird comparisons here of milage and interior space. Big cars just use a lot and are inefficient to get from A to B. Have a Jeep 4.0 and it just guzzles gas. Small / eco cars are just cleaner & use less petrol; fact of life.
It is a given people like to drive big cars. If you can pay for it, enjoy it but do try to do something for the environment, get some CO2 deduction by buying/planting trees etc etc. Yes you end up paying double (petrol+CO2 reduction) but your nett effect will be better than any eco driver that doesn't. Keep the future world nice for your kids (assuming you have them, why drive a 7 person carrier otherwise?)
Enjoy it, deal with it.
PS: considering an eco car on the side for the home-work and other boring/traffic dense driving and keep the fun for the weekends
ChuckL
These things stink. The Sept. 2008 issue of Diesel Power Mag. has an economy report on some powerful diesel pickup trucks. One which turns the quarter mile in the 12.40s only got 19 MPG at 80 to 85 mph. When dropped to only 70-75 the mileage went up to 26 mpg. One of these trucks got an amazing 29.52 mpg. Admittedly these guys were trying hard for good mileage, but this was also a real world mileage, not a laboratory test. TheEuropean, we can't get it here, Jaguar XF 2.7 D performs like a Jag and delivers over 30 US MPG, it is 39.7 M/ImperialG.
When are we going to get real diesel passenger cars? Or better yet, diesel electric hybrids instead of the gasoline powered things.
ksmith
The miles/gallon is a misleading way of reporting fuel economy. It's true that if you double your MPG's, say from 10 to 20, you'll halve the amount of gas you buy. But going from 10 mpg to 20 mpg, isn't the same as going from 20 to 30. You can run the numbers yourself, but regardless of the price of gas, or how many miles you drive. Going from a 10 mpg vehicle to a 16 mpg one saves the same amount of gas and money as going from that 16 mpg vehcile to one that gets 40 mpg. Yes, you read that correctly, 10 to 16 saves as much as going from 16 to 40. Suddenly the 45+ mpg Prius doesn't look as flashy.
The Europeans have it right. Stating fuel economy as gallons/mile (or L/100k, in their case) makes the number easier to play around with. So if we converted the 10, 16, 40 mpg in the above example to gallons per 100 miles, then we'd get 10, 6.25, and 2.5 respectively. Now you're saving 3.75 gallons every 100 miles each time you make the leap.
Will we ever change the way we report fuel economy? Probably not, but if consumers took the time to run the numbers before they traded in (at a loss usually) their 20 mpg truck for that 30 mpg car, they'd realize that the savings aren't what they're expecting.
Joe Eder
Ditto your comments, ksmith.
My '03 Focus SVT gets 26 highway w/o A/C, 24 with. I can't find a payout for changing vehicles until fuel is $10/gallon, and with the economy, any new car will have to pay for itself!
p.s. The American auto industry is in deep doo because they haven't been smart enough to give Americans the products produced by them in other countries. We have yet to get past the first gen Focus platform, while Europe is on version 2-2.5. And SVT handling is almost standard! That's stupid management (remember that ignorance can be corrected, but stupid can't).
I'm looking at $3000 for a scooter for town usage --about 100 mpg--, and giving up the SVT. That will make some economic sense. And our Honda Minivan gets similar mileage to the Focus. However, I am retired, and have few scheduled activities that require a 4-wheeled vehicle or getting out in bad weather.
Ducati Minor
That's an issue that's come up a million times, and we've discussed the reasons why Motown hasn't imported its Euro lines here. The UK Focus is considered a mid-range vehicle akin to the US Fusion. Exchange rates aside, assembling a vehicle like the Euro Focus with its build, materials, and dynamics would cost US buyers a pretty nickel. I would estimate, at best, the Euro Focus starting in the neighborhood of $19,000. That would be if Ford could open assembly in North America. The Focus would have to be fitted with a US Ecotec engine to meet EPA standards or have one of the Euro powerplants modified (with extra expense).
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